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Post by weslae on Mar 21, 2008 14:57:53 GMT -5
there are a few guys that i cant tell if they are heroes or villains.
new goblin
lizard
phoenix
scorpion
deadpool
punisher
ares
cable
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jestergoblin
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Post by jestergoblin on Mar 21, 2008 15:03:07 GMT -5
Lizard and Scorpion are villains.
Phoenix is a cosmic force and is as "evil" as Galactus is.
Ares is a god and cannot be labeled as good or evil since such classifications don't exactly apply to gods. That said, he's a hero for now but as the god of war, that means someone will always see him as a villain.
New Goblin isn't real. He should be Green Goblin II.
Cable and Deadpool are mercenaries.
Punisher is an anti-hero
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Post by else3573 on Mar 21, 2008 15:16:51 GMT -5
Lizard and Scorpion are villains. Phoenix is a cosmic force and is as "evil" as Galactus is. Ares is a god and cannot be labeled as good or evil since such classifications don't exactly apply to gods. That said, he's a hero for now but as the god of war, that means someone will always see him as a villain. New Goblin isn't real. He should be Green Goblin II. Cable and Deadpool are mercenaries. Punisher is an anti-hero LOL, good answers. |
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Post by clevernamehere on Mar 21, 2008 15:37:59 GMT -5
Lizard and Scorpion are villains. Phoenix is a cosmic force and is as "evil" as Galactus is. Ares is a god and cannot be labeled as good or evil since such classifications don't exactly apply to gods. That said, he's a hero for now but as the god of war, that means someone will always see him as a villain. New Goblin isn't real. He should be Green Goblin II. Cable and Deadpool are mercenaries. Punisher is an anti-hero Cable's been a mercenary, but he's also been an X-Man (about 3 times), president of his own island nation, leader of New Mutants/X-Force, and protector of the possible mutant messiah. I think you'd have to swing him into the good guy category. And I think you can label gods hero or villain... I don't think there's many people that wouldn't see Thor and Hercules as heroes, but I do get what you're going for. |
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jestergoblin
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Post by jestergoblin on Mar 21, 2008 16:37:51 GMT -5
Well, I agree that Thor is usually viewed as a hero while Loki is viewed as a villain but we're also dealing with Ares, the God of War himself. He seems to encompass a large gray area.
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Post by jerkface on Mar 21, 2008 17:10:22 GMT -5
new goblin - Are you referring to the movie character? Bc in comics there was Norman Osborn (super evil), Harry Osborn (driven by a vendetta against spider-man), and Phil Urich (tried to use the costume as a hero in a short-lived monthly). Then there are other shorter attempts with other Goblins, I think about half a dozen people have been the Green Goblin at one point.
lizard - He is so not a villain, he's like Wolverine or Wolfsbane, trying to quell the beast that lives inside him. Sometimes he's not so successful, but he's never motivated by anything inherently wrong or evil.
phoenix - The original Pheonix would be a hero, who was then tempted and became the Dark Pheonix (a villain). But subsequently both Jean and Rachel have worn the mantle of Phoenix and been heroic.
scorpion - He's really just a super-powered bank robber. This is the only cut and dry one on the list.
deadpool - Initially, he was most definitely evil. He was Tolliver's main muscle back in the early days of X-Force. Then they fleshed him out a bit, gave him a love interest in Siryn, explained that he is motivated by money not evil, and then he got forced into doing good in order to regain his regeneration powers when he had his comic. He is much less of a killer than he used to be and sometimes fights with Cable for no money. He's even a card carrying member of SHIELD as of Civil War.
punisher - This character was designed so that you would ask the very question you are posing. Do the ends justify the means?
ares - I don't much care for him, and don't know the history of the character. In Mighty Avengers they seem to be building him up to be a hero but too reckless and driven by fighting and destruction.
cable - Here's the only one on your list who is a definite hero. He may have been the only X character who carried a gun in the nineties but he was always on the side of right. In Cable and Deadpool he just about killed himself trying to bring peace and salvation to whoever he could. In Messiah Complex his actions were questioned but in the end we saw he was right.
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Post by clevernamehere on Mar 21, 2008 17:24:42 GMT -5
Well, I agree that Thor is usually viewed as a hero while Loki is viewed as a villain but we're also dealing with Ares, the God of War himself. He seems to encompass a large gray area. It's kind of the Magneto grey area though. Hero or villain depends on who the writer is. I've always liked that with most Marvel heroes, you can always write a story where they're seen as either good or bad, without being "untrue" to the character. For instance, Doctor Doom is generally a bad guy, but there's been a fair amount of writing about his tragic past, about his position as ruler and protector of a small nation that he single-handedly turned into a world power. It's why you can see things like Colossus joining Magneto and the Acolytes, or Sandman joining the Avengers, Juggernaut joining the X-Men. It's like the central theme for Thunderbolts... bad guys doing good things, good guys who have bad pasts... |
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Post by clevernamehere on Mar 21, 2008 17:33:53 GMT -5
I think Wes is trying to decide which shelf his SHS figures go on... the good guy or bad guy shelf, so I'm guessing New Gob is the movie character (or GGII, if you want to use his comic analogue.)
As for Ben Urich... yeah, he started as the good Green Goblin, but did you read Loners yet?
Lizard, the character, isn't a bad guy, but if you're lining them up, then he almost HAS to be on the bad guy side of things just because he always ends up going against Spidey. I don't like the result, but he's unfortunately always going to end up on the bad guy list (when you list things like that)
Ares started as a bad guy through and through. Kidnappings, evil plots, overthrwoing the gods... he was Hercules's Loki. Now, since Ares (the mini-series) the writers have given him more of the noble god-amongst-men-who-must-do-what-he-must angle.
Wes: I didn't see Puma on your list. He's another character who switches sides based on the writer.
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Post by the7thcynic on Mar 21, 2008 17:36:12 GMT -5
Ill be more cut and dry for u wes, but its basically been covered by the others. For now its...
new goblin - villain
lizard - villain
phoenix (green) - hero / dark phoenix (red) - villain
scorpion - villain
deadpool - hero
punisher - hero
ares - hero
cable - hero
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Post by weslae on Mar 21, 2008 19:45:02 GMT -5
here are some new ones:collossus,havok,sentinels,and hank pym
P.S. if you have one you want to know yourself,just ask
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Post by clevernamehere on Mar 21, 2008 20:04:35 GMT -5
Generally: Colossus, Havok, Pym - good guys.
Sentinels - bad guys.
BUT Colossus once sucker punched Bishop to betray the X-Men and defect to Magneto's Acolytes.
BUT Havok was once amnesiatic and serving as a Genoshan Magistrate, and years later worked with Dark Beast and Fatale in a Brotherhood of Evil Mutants where he was basically a mutant terrorist (although, I think they retconned the evil-Havok part of that story out and just decided that he'd secretly been a good guy trying to infiltrate the bad guys)
BUT Sentinels have been put to good use like in Age of Apocalypse, or the O*N*E units. And they are supposed to be the protectors of innocent humanity.
BUT Ultimate Hank Pym was a traitor to the Ultimates (and then helped them against the people he betrayed), and regular Hank is almost always a good guy. He hit his wife once in a story in the 70's when he was going through a mental breakdown and nobody ever lets that go. Generally when he's been the "villain" in stories, he's been the victim of a mental breakdown or mind control or blackmail.
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jestergoblin
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Post by jestergoblin on Mar 21, 2008 20:10:12 GMT -5
There have been five Green Goblins total, but New Goblin isn't really a Green Goblin. If anything, he's like an amalgam of GGII and GGIV.
And Lizard is totally a villain. He tried to enslave all of humanity several times.
7th's list is the easiest way to sort between hero and villain. So use that if you want them sorted that way.
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Post by weslae on Mar 21, 2008 20:29:26 GMT -5
but,new goblin helped spidey in spidey 3,and lizard could be a good guy like in spiderman:friend or foe.as for scorpion,in spidey 3 game,he helps you defeat rhino
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Post by jestergoblin on Mar 21, 2008 20:42:32 GMT -5
Don't use Friend or Foe as a way to judge if someone is a hero or not. That's like saying Darth Vader and Yoda beat Boba Fett because it happened in LEGO Star Wars.
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Post by jerkface on Jun 20, 2008 19:54:18 GMT -5
Don't use Friend or Foe as a way to judge if someone is a hero or not. That's like saying Darth Vader and Yoda beat Boba Fett because it happened in LEGO Star Wars. While the truth is that Darth Vader and Yoda only beat Boba Fett for my heart. |
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